2021 will be a pivotal year for Germany.
Several elections will take place at regional level and the
parliamentary elections on 26 September will mark the end of the Merkel
era. What do you expect from this?
Angela Merkel has been in power for sixteen years and during her "reign"
she has had to deal with a succession of major crises: financial,
migratory, health. This leaves its mark! A page in German history will
be turned with her departure. We do not know what the post-Merkel era
will be, but we do know that it will change. I think it is important to
look closely at what will happen in the federal elections on 26
September, to see how the political map will be reorganised, which
parliamentary majorities will be possible, which new personalities will
emerge or, on the contrary, which will have made their last appearance
in the autumn of 2021. This is likely to be a major turning point in
German politics, which will undoubtedly have significant repercussions
at European and international level. A turning point that we may enjoy
and look forward to.
Your party has become a major force in Germany. Will the German Greens be able to enter the government or even the Chancellery?
We want to govern, and we are going into these elections with the firm
intention of convincing the electorate to give us their votes and a
clear mandate to govern the Federal Republic, probably as part of a
coalition. But we should not count our chickens before they're hatched.
We know what it is like to believe opinion polls and public rumour that
the Greens will be in government anyway! Four years ago, at about the
same time of year, we were hearing the same thing, and yet four years
later, we have just spent all that time on the opposition benches. Let
us be clear: it is quite possible that the "grand coalition" of the CDU
and the SPD will be renewed. The SPD's electoral programme is based on
continuity, and if they get enough votes, it would be conceivable and
probably even reasonable in the eyes of the CDU to renew, because it is
obvious that the negotiations will be more cumbersome, more complex and,
without doubt, less pleasant with us than with the SPD. The same goes
for the conquest of the Chancellery, there is still a long way to go
until September. No one knows what the pandemic has in store for us, or
how much more work we will have to do before we can return to some
semblance of normality; any prediction now as to the outcome of the
federal elections would be completely meaningless. We are going to do
it; we are going to campaign and we are going to win this election!
At the congress on 22 November, your
co-president, Robert Habeck, said that in the Greens' mind, power had
often been considered as something "dirty". How has this relationship
with power evolved?
Let's start at the beginning, 40 years ago. We, the Greens, came out of
various post-1968 movements; we wanted to influence the political world,
some wanting to govern by participating in the institutions, others
wanting to influence them without participating and by organising an
extra-parliamentary opposition. The choice was quickly made to enter
Parliament and, therefore, to set up a party. This parliamentary
presence led us to face the question of power and our desire to govern;
in 1998, we decided to enter a government coalition with the SPD, aware
that this required compromises. For more than twenty years, the question
has not been whether to govern or not; the question that concerns us is
what compromises we are prepared to accept, and with whom, to advance a
certain number of our ideas. But, as in the 2017 federal elections,
evidently, we want to participate in a government to work in the fight
against climate change, in the ecological and social transformation, in
the defence of democracy and Europe. On the issue of climate change, I
would like to stress that it is not about green lobbying but about
defending the interests of the planet and achieving the European
objectives of reducing CO2 emissions. Even if for us, the Greens, the
urgency of the situation means that we want to do even more, and above
all much faster.
What are the keys to the German Greens' success: ecological expertise, the weakening of the two major parties?
The key to our success is the German proportional electoral system! It
is obvious that, compared to France among others, this electoral system
has allowed us to enter the Bundestag, as well as many regional
governments (Länder). The strength of the Greens is that, from the
outset, they wanted to embody a very broad vision of society by bringing
together feminists, pacifists, ecologists and human rights activists,
who together created the party. This plurality has always strengthened
us, even if it was and still is difficult at times.
What advice would you give to the French ecologists?
I would be careful about giving them advice, except one thing: demand a
change in your electoral and representation system! This is the major
difference between the French Greens and the German Greens. For the
rest, the diversity here is just as great and a source of potential
conflict. But for us, the option of power being a reality - we
participate in 11 out of 16 regional governments - it is no longer a
question of abstract discussions that divide our party; on the contrary,
it is very concrete, and we have to find solutions and compromises
every day and on a day-to-day basis. The French Greens always have to
build alliances before the elections, which is much more complicated.
After sixteen years in the Chancellery, Angela
Merkel has had a profound influence on the shape of the European Union.
Some criticise her lack of vision, others praise her commitment. What do
you think?
Chancellor Merkel will certainly not go down in history for her
visionary qualities. She has always done just the right thing to prevent
the European project from exploding or imploding, but nothing more. Nor
does she want to go down in history as the gravedigger of the European
project, she understands perfectly well that she cannot let this project
die. But she has never dared to address the fundamental issues that
would help us approach the future in a better position. I really hoped
that during the German Presidency of the Council of the European Union
[1],
I really hoped that she would give a great speech on Europe, but it
didn't happen. I really hoped that she would use this presidency to
finally give a response to French President Emmanuel Macron, to show her
vision of Europe, but it didn't happen. I think her main objective is
always to avoid conflicts within her party or her government coalition.
Nevertheless, she took a major step forward in
July by agreeing to the principle of a common European debt as part of
the recent recovery plan.
This remains in line with her prudent logic, that of taking the
necessary steps to ensure that it does not collapse. And in this case,
it was a question of giving a European impulse to the financial markets.
She also did this because the German Constitutional Court has clearly
defined
[2]
the limits of the European Central Bank's mandate. Angela Merkel's old
option, which was to say that in the end the
ECB will save us, no longer
exists.
Does the Franco-German couple still have any meaning for the younger generation?
For me, it is essential, but I can see that there is less enthusiasm for
it. Distrust of France is even greater than that of the United States
in certain circles in Germany, as can be seen in the polls. At the same
time, the Franco-German Parliamentary Assembly has strengthened
institutional links with France. Without the MPs, relations with France
would be much more strained, the situation would be much less pleasant
than it is. For the future, it will really depend on whoever takes over
the Chancellery.
Emmanuel Macron places great importance on
European strategic autonomy. Would you agree with Annegret
Kramp-Karrenbauer that this is an "illusion"?
Personally, I don't talk about autonomy, because this notion of being
completely independent, autonomous in this world, this notion doesn't
exist, and if it were one day achievable, it would not be any more
desirable. What concerns us instead is the question of "sovereignty", in
the sense of "capacity for action". We must have the capacity to act
where necessary, in the economic sector, in the financial sector and,
above all, in the digital sector, which is the priority for the years to
come. Sovereignty is a completely different concept from autonomy, and I
think there will never be a majority in Germany in favour of autonomy.
In this context, what room is there for a more ambitious European defence policy?
In my view, it is all about creating a well-framed European defence
industry, moving away from the national logic of the defence industry,
so that we no longer have so much duplication and waste with projects
that do not work. We need to refocus on the capabilities needed for our
interventions and develop them together. It is not a question of adding
something to what is done at national level but of creating added value
and stopping certain projects.
The Green Deal for Europe to combat climate change is the Commission's top priority. Does it go far enough?
The important thing is what the Commission will propose and, even more,
what the Member States and the European Parliament will do with it. The
Commission must make concrete proposals on the circular economy, on the
reform of the carbon tax mechanism and the border tax mechanism, and in
favour of a real reform of the common agricultural policy. The first
draft is good, but we can do better than that. In addition to the
implementation of the Green Deal, our party has several European
priorities: the strengthening of a European fiscal policy, the social
dimension, women's rights, the issue of migration which must be managed
humanely. We also need to see, in terms of foreign policy, who our
partners and potential partners are and with whom we can go part of the
way.
The Conference on the Future of Europe is finally on track. What do you expect from it?
I am sceptical, I wonder what the outcome will be. I hope that our
governments and parliaments do not reduce this Conference to a mere talk
show, but that they take it seriously and pay attention to it. I am not
yet convinced that they have given it the necessary means. It's good
that it was initiated, but I have my doubts about the determination of
the Member States. Nevertheless, I want to give it a fair chance, and
the Greens will do everything to make this Conference on the future of
Europe a success!
Interview undertaken by Isabelle Marchais translated by Helen Levy.